Chopping Frozen Trees
- Thread starter Barney
- Start date
Why would you be chopping down frozen trees? I would say that is poor planning. We have enough wood for the next 5 years. I can't imagine trying to chop a frozen tree. You would kill your hands if you were using an ax. If you were using a chainsaw you would break the blade!
What the hell are you talking about? Are you talking about a rotted tree that's full of water. Trees don't freeze other than the sap lines and that's if they get caught in a freak storm. They're no harder to cut in the Winter than they are in the Summer.
Do you live in some alternate universe? Do the laws of physics not apply where you domicile? Frozen trees? Are you nuts?
Do you live in some alternate universe? Do the laws of physics not apply where you domicile? Frozen trees? Are you nuts?
ChadTower
Active Member
I'm guessing he means splitting frozen wood.
My guess would be dead wood that's been laying around and soaked up some water. I don't know I've never seen frozen trees before. You stack firewood so it will dry and the rain will run off. I have seen frozen very dead branches like punk wood, but that is poor fire wood even when dry.
ppine
Forester
Winter can be the best time for logging or woodcutting in swampy areas or those with lots of brush. Snow cover protects the ground from compaction. I haven't found much difference in falling trees with a chainsaw that are frozen or unfrozen.
Pathfinder1
Well-Known Member
Hi...
When I was in my mid-to-early teens, I used to help a couple of local dairy farmers fell trees with a two-man (that means by hand!) crosscut saw. The saw cut quite cleanly, with no problems or 'excess' exertion. The logs would then be skidded out by a team of horses.
These trees would be used for firewood...and for fence posts.
When I was in my mid-to-early teens, I used to help a couple of local dairy farmers fell trees with a two-man (that means by hand!) crosscut saw. The saw cut quite cleanly, with no problems or 'excess' exertion. The logs would then be skidded out by a team of horses.
These trees would be used for firewood...and for fence posts.
stm1957
NotMy1stRodeo
Frozen wood is harder to chop...
Contrary to what some might say, wood does freeze; milled lumber, timbers, seasoned logs, green logs, even standing live trees. But it doesn't freeze at 32° F, rather depending on the species and the moisture content, the point at which wood freezes is considerably lower and it needs to remain there for a considerable period of time. Standing live hardwoods will typically freeze if temps remain below -15 for at least a couple weeks --- For softwoods, -20 for about 2.5 weeks. This is because the "free water" in trees (or wood) is more like a diluted anti-freeze due to dissolved sugars and minerals.
Most trees that are native to the more northern areas of the USA do not typically die when frozen solid because the "bound water" which is actually part of the cell structure of the "living cells" has this natural antifreeze characteristic, and that, along with physiological changes that happen to moisture location (on a cellular level), allow these cells to stay slightly unfrozen and alive... Even when the majority of the trees mass (dead cells) are frozen and the free water between the cells and within the vascular system has turned to ice.
In freshly felled, or "green wood" the bulk of the wood's moisture content (expressed as a percentage) is "free water". This is why when green wood freezes it gets so much harder. It is basically ice reinforced with wood fibers, and ice is harder than all but the very hardest tropical hardwoods. It should also be noted that a felled tree will freeze considerably easier that a standing live tree.
Because of this many non-heated saw mills will not process frozen logs, and many of those that do will debark and thoroughly remove any exterior ice before sawing. They may also decrease the tooth angle and change the "set" on their saws teeth, or they change over to special "winter teeth".
The same is true for chain saws used on frozen trees; change the tooth angle, adjust the raker height, or change to a carbide tipped winter chain. Even before the time of chain saws, loggers that had to work with frozen trees or logs, sharpened their crosscut saws differently for extremely cold weather, or had designated winter saws for use on frozen trees.
The amount that wood hardens when frozen depends on the species and the moisture content. Certain hardwoods, like red oak, get noticeably harder. Others like most of the maples can get significantly harder. Many of the softwoods can get dramatically harder because of their higher moisture content when green. More frozen moisture means harder wood. White Fir is probably the worst because even in the winter its moisture content percentage can average well over 100% when freshly felled.
The harder the wood, the harder it is on the tools used to work it. Frozen wood is especially bad because not only is it harder... But it also becomes brittle. Rather than the fibers cutting with typically longer shavings, they instead break or shatter into much finer dust and finer dust is harder for the blade to clear from the cut, not to mention that it can also build up along the sides of the blade's body if the amount of set isn't reduced accordingly. Because of this, and also because frozen saw dust is very abrasive, blades dull much quicker. It's like the differences of how a sharp chisel cuts wood as opposed to how a file "cuts" wood.
Edged blades (axes, hatchets, brush axes, etc.) are more difficult to use and "cut slower", the harder the wood is. Again, some of this can be mitigated by the way the blade is sharpened, but sharpening will need to be done more frequently. The typical way that a hardware store axe is sharpened can result in an axe literally bouncing right off of a smallish frozen fir tree… almost like it was a rubber mallet.
And being a master wood worker, I can tell you to never try to mill or machine frozen lumber… Teeth and knives dull very quickly, saw bodies scorch and lose temper. Feed rollers and feed wheels don't grip. Not to mention that frozen boards can release internal stresses much more violently than non-frozen boards which can result in severe "kick-backs".
On the other hand, most species of " bucked up" fire wood are considerably easier to split when thoroughly frozen. This is because the frozen connective fibers have less adhesion to each other and the icy wood is far less compressible… making splitting wedges and splitting axes far more efficient. In fact some people do most of their "green" fire wood splitting when their wood is solidly frozen.
Contrary to what some might say, wood does freeze; milled lumber, timbers, seasoned logs, green logs, even standing live trees. But it doesn't freeze at 32° F, rather depending on the species and the moisture content, the point at which wood freezes is considerably lower and it needs to remain there for a considerable period of time. Standing live hardwoods will typically freeze if temps remain below -15 for at least a couple weeks --- For softwoods, -20 for about 2.5 weeks. This is because the "free water" in trees (or wood) is more like a diluted anti-freeze due to dissolved sugars and minerals.
Most trees that are native to the more northern areas of the USA do not typically die when frozen solid because the "bound water" which is actually part of the cell structure of the "living cells" has this natural antifreeze characteristic, and that, along with physiological changes that happen to moisture location (on a cellular level), allow these cells to stay slightly unfrozen and alive... Even when the majority of the trees mass (dead cells) are frozen and the free water between the cells and within the vascular system has turned to ice.
In freshly felled, or "green wood" the bulk of the wood's moisture content (expressed as a percentage) is "free water". This is why when green wood freezes it gets so much harder. It is basically ice reinforced with wood fibers, and ice is harder than all but the very hardest tropical hardwoods. It should also be noted that a felled tree will freeze considerably easier that a standing live tree.
Because of this many non-heated saw mills will not process frozen logs, and many of those that do will debark and thoroughly remove any exterior ice before sawing. They may also decrease the tooth angle and change the "set" on their saws teeth, or they change over to special "winter teeth".
The same is true for chain saws used on frozen trees; change the tooth angle, adjust the raker height, or change to a carbide tipped winter chain. Even before the time of chain saws, loggers that had to work with frozen trees or logs, sharpened their crosscut saws differently for extremely cold weather, or had designated winter saws for use on frozen trees.
The amount that wood hardens when frozen depends on the species and the moisture content. Certain hardwoods, like red oak, get noticeably harder. Others like most of the maples can get significantly harder. Many of the softwoods can get dramatically harder because of their higher moisture content when green. More frozen moisture means harder wood. White Fir is probably the worst because even in the winter its moisture content percentage can average well over 100% when freshly felled.
The harder the wood, the harder it is on the tools used to work it. Frozen wood is especially bad because not only is it harder... But it also becomes brittle. Rather than the fibers cutting with typically longer shavings, they instead break or shatter into much finer dust and finer dust is harder for the blade to clear from the cut, not to mention that it can also build up along the sides of the blade's body if the amount of set isn't reduced accordingly. Because of this, and also because frozen saw dust is very abrasive, blades dull much quicker. It's like the differences of how a sharp chisel cuts wood as opposed to how a file "cuts" wood.
Edged blades (axes, hatchets, brush axes, etc.) are more difficult to use and "cut slower", the harder the wood is. Again, some of this can be mitigated by the way the blade is sharpened, but sharpening will need to be done more frequently. The typical way that a hardware store axe is sharpened can result in an axe literally bouncing right off of a smallish frozen fir tree… almost like it was a rubber mallet.
And being a master wood worker, I can tell you to never try to mill or machine frozen lumber… Teeth and knives dull very quickly, saw bodies scorch and lose temper. Feed rollers and feed wheels don't grip. Not to mention that frozen boards can release internal stresses much more violently than non-frozen boards which can result in severe "kick-backs".
On the other hand, most species of " bucked up" fire wood are considerably easier to split when thoroughly frozen. This is because the frozen connective fibers have less adhesion to each other and the icy wood is far less compressible… making splitting wedges and splitting axes far more efficient. In fact some people do most of their "green" fire wood splitting when their wood is solidly frozen.
Last edited:
ppine
Forester
stm1957,
Thanks for an excellent post. Come to think of it, I haven't done any logging in weather below zero, just spring and fall when it is maybe between zero and 40 degrees. By your description the compounds in the sap would prevent freezing in those temperatures. So I really don't have any experience with frozen wood, just frozen snow and ice.
Thanks for an excellent post. Come to think of it, I haven't done any logging in weather below zero, just spring and fall when it is maybe between zero and 40 degrees. By your description the compounds in the sap would prevent freezing in those temperatures. So I really don't have any experience with frozen wood, just frozen snow and ice.
Cappy
Well-Known Member
Was watching that Alaska reality show last night and one of the young men was out c\splitting bucked cord wood and loading it on a sled to drag back to his cabin. It was obviously very frozen. He had a heavy single bladed splitting axe and appeared to be swinging easy and splitting with one chop. In the short minute or so of video he easily split a double arm load and headed back in not even breathing hard. Being a southern guy I am totally ignerent when it comes to frozen wood, but if this global warmin cold front we gonna get tonight is any indication I may be forced to try it soon.
I remember stories my Dad told about firewooding during the depression. He would take his team and sled up the canyons nearly every other day. Mountain mahogany was the best firewood if they could get to the ridges to get it. They couldn't cut it with an axe. They broke it with the "hammer" side of the axe. The cold cutting edge of the axe would literally chip hitting the mahogany. He also had to build a small fire so he could warm the axe up a bit to stop the cutting edge from chipping.
In his late years, I would bundle him up, strap him into my pickup and take him to the canyon when I was cutting wood. With a big chain saw, and a basin of beatle killed douglas fir, one tree would easily fill my truck and only take an hour or so to cut and load. He would marvel at what a pickup truck and a good chain saw could do, reminicing all those hours and days it took him to collect that much wood.
However, none of the stories he told or that I experienced ever involved frozen wood while cutting it in the field. But I have had those big rounds of douglas fir freeze after they were ricked up. They would freeze so bad, my 8 lb splitting maul would just bounce off them. My time used to be so precious, I would save splitting until I needed the wood but now, being retired, I split it all as it comes in.
In his late years, I would bundle him up, strap him into my pickup and take him to the canyon when I was cutting wood. With a big chain saw, and a basin of beatle killed douglas fir, one tree would easily fill my truck and only take an hour or so to cut and load. He would marvel at what a pickup truck and a good chain saw could do, reminicing all those hours and days it took him to collect that much wood.
However, none of the stories he told or that I experienced ever involved frozen wood while cutting it in the field. But I have had those big rounds of douglas fir freeze after they were ricked up. They would freeze so bad, my 8 lb splitting maul would just bounce off them. My time used to be so precious, I would save splitting until I needed the wood but now, being retired, I split it all as it comes in.