Controlling Gun Violence

[ppine]

I am troubled by the continuing mass murders we keep hearing about. I have given the issue lots of thought. We can mostly agree that gun control won't help. We do not do a very good job of dealing with mental health issues in this country. Insurance won't cover it, there is a stigma attached etc. The streets are full of homeless people with mental health issues. It seems like the stories about suspects and convicted criminals in shooting always "had a history of mental illness." We have a registry of sex offenders. Where is the violent offender list? I want to know if a violent person moves into my community. They could be prevented from owning guns like felons and have a parole officer.

Currently, it seems like the number of lives we lose to guns each year from these murders, exceeds the lives saved by having people armed and able to protect themselves. The gun culture that Costas eludes to is firmly entrenched in this country and is probably not going away. The most extreme preppers and survivalists seem fixated on semi-auto weapons and stockpiles of thousands of rounds of ammo. Some of them seem to have fantasies about killing people to survive and fighting over a loaf of bread. They see themselves killing for food. These types of people are mostly not dangerous, but they are if they are around some of the violent mental cases mentioned above.

When you hear people talking crazy, say something. You may help save someone's life.

 

[CozInCowtown]

How many unarmed/disarmed Jews lost theur lives back in the 30s and 40s??

So, making guns illegal will take them off the streets?
We should make meth and heroine illegal also, eh!

Gun free Zones are just target rich enviroments for psychopaths.

I blame this atrocity on those who think buildings full of defenseless children and those who love and care for them is a good idea.
One armed teacher, principle, security guard, janitor, parent.......just somebody, anybody.

This is nothing but fulfillment of the gun control agenda.

My prayers to those who were lost and those who suffered the loss of loved ones.

JMO,
DC

 

[IndianaHiker]

No I can't see that having an armed parent, teacher, janitor , security guard, is the answer. If someone is going to be armed it needs to be someone that his highly trained, and extremely proficient. Most of the above persons are not. If someone is going to armed in a school it needs to be a law enforcement professional that has special training, and is required to have their skills tested, and to practice these skills on a regular basis.

I can't say that I am pro gun but I am not anti-gun either. I don't carry and I at this point don't even own a firearm. The choice not to carry is my personal choice and I have not problem with anyone that choices differently as long as they are responsible. I elect not to carry as I am not willing to spend the time and resources to get training on a regular basis and to keep my skill level with a weapon to where I feel it needs to be to carry in public. For me to carry I would want to be on the level of a special forces operator. I know that my work schedule, money to spend for ammo and range time will not allow that level of commitment. Therefore I don't carry. That and the fact that the responsibility and liability if ever faced with a situation where I might harm or kill an innocent bystander. I am not willing to take that risk. Would rather be killed going after someone with a gun with my pocket knife than live with that. Another reason I don't carry as I really don't feel the need. I think that most every situation I encounter things are not that dangerous. Being aware of my situation and what is happening around goes a good distance in keeping me safe.

Any just my two cents for what it is worth.

 

[CozInCowtown]

I wonder what the reaction time for Navy SEALs is??
I am sorry but being I was never a Navy SEAL does not negate my ability or responsibility to protect my child or local children from a psychopath at school, home or anywhere else.
I would allways prefer to have an armed parent, principle, teacher or any other concerned person on location that waiting for the cops to show up and help count the bodies.
A good person will allways do incredible acts in the face of evil.
JMO also,
DC

 

[Grandpa]

I was sitting in a hospital waiting room when I saw the initial news reports on the TV. I began crying as I heard this. The totally senselessness of it all. The anguished parents, teachers and schoolmates.

How to control gun violence? shoot back. Why are so many of these senseless killings in schools? Because schools are a gun free zone. So are court houses but only a crazy person would try this there. Too many police and security guards. To get a concealed carry permit requires training and proficiency tests. You just can't waltz down, slap some money down and get that permit. Even taking the classes won't give you enough skill to pass the proficiency tests.

Next is the media. They are in the business of selling copy and they do and say whatever they can to get your attention. You all heard about Holmes and the theater shooting in Aurora but did you hear about the church shooting there?
Two Aurora Shootings: One Widely Known; the Other Ignored

aurora church shooting - Yahoo! Video Search

No mainstream media said a word about the church shooting. It goes against their agenda that someone was able to shoot back. The same with the Trolley Square shooting in Salt Lake City. While the police were surrounding that mall, the perp was walking down the hall with a 12 guage and a bag of shells shooting anyone that moved. Until a person with a concealed shot him.

We are going to hear a lot about the evils of guns. But we sure won't hear anything about the need for better control of violent people. Violent people don't bother with concealed permits or background checks. It's too easy for them to get guns from crooked politicians and beaurocrats (Fast and Furious).

 

[Grandpa]

Shooting back? I suspicioned something like this when I listened to the Police report on the Clackamas Mall shooting this week. I had heard a report that a legal concealed carrier was involved.

Clackamas Mall Shooter Was Confonted By Concealed Carrier (Oregon)

 

[oldsarge]

Reason: If we to get into a ring and box and you had you hands tied behind you. how would you feel? Mass murders don't use muzzle loaders to commit crimes. Never fight fair, always one up your opponent. That's why criminals and nut have guns. I do agree that there are some really violent groups out there just waiting for the day they can unleash their hatred.

You are 100% correct about identifying those who act in a suspicious manner. I don't think we hear half of what goes on out there about crimes being stopped by people who were alert.

 

[Lorax]

Let's look back since say....Columbine.

Now let's take the method or "tool' in which the evil was done and take it out of the equation. What are we left with?

All young males aged 18-24. Most all had mental issues. How many had been on medication? How many were currently under some kind of treatment? The answers are very telling but we ignore them. Why do we ignore them?

Because the gun is the symptom of the disease. It's easier to think we could treat the symptom and it will all go away. Ever hear of the Bath School incident? The "tool" doesn't matter. What matters is getting to the root of the problem.

The young men in this country are in serious trouble. I believe years of telling people they are super-special and removing personal accountability from everyone (It's always someone or something else's fault!) leads to people who feel like victims all the time and lash out violently instead of coping with distress and working through problems.

We treat the symptoms because we don't want to admit that WE failed as a society. We get clues and hints through social media, facebook and twitter and see people irrational or way too stressed. We then sit back anonymously at our monitors and say "OOhh! This could get interesting!" instead of getting involved. It's our own little reality TV show in real time and we as Americans have made sport out of it. We don't get involved because we're so afraid of jumping to conclusions or "hurting someone's feelings". It's so much easier to say we didn't see the tweets or we had no clue somebody was about to snap when something bad eventually happens. Then it usually comes out, as it already is in this case,that the signs were there for a long time and we all stood by and did nothing.
The root of the problem is our society today and the most heinous part of itself, our "canary in the coal mine" is the actions of this group of people, the young males in this country that we should be taking care of and figuring out where we've lost our way with them. It's time to get to and focus on the true root of the problem. That answer will show that we as a society have failed and that's a hard pill to swallow.

I'd rather swallow that pill and do something proactive than go through another day like yesterday.

 

[oldsarge]

Ever hear of the Bath School incident? The "tool" doesn't matter. What matters is getting to the root of the problem.

I recently saw a post here about this. Well said Lorax!


Timeline Photos | Facebook

 

[Grandpa]

Excellent post Lorax. Very well said.

And putting the tool back into the mix, the number one weapon for violent crime in the U.S. is still the baseball bat.

 

[oldsarge]

Indiana: Times are changing my friend. Any position you hold in today's society requires you to do far more than required several decades ago. Now we have to attend and learn cultural issues to accommodate different ethnic groups as not to hurt or offend.(not opposed, just saying) Being a teacher is much more than teaching one to learn to read and write, now you need to know CPR, basic first aid, how to identify allergic reactions. Basically how to be a first responder. We entrust our school system to protect our children when they are in their care. Now possibly being armed is one more thing to learn. A prime example is where I work. I hired on as a welder, but am require to sometimes drive a 1 ton stake bed truck. But because our company employ's big rig drivers. I too am required to fill out a complete log book as a professional truck driver. All because of liability issues imposed by insurance companies. Point here is that if I want to work where I'm at and earn a paycheck, I need to comply with all these new policies. Engaging in combat is no different than being a fire fighter or police officer. Sure, as a fire fighter or police officer, you accept the dangers of possibly having to rush into an dangerous area to help others. We say sure, that's their jobs, we need to see that as part of our job as a teacher too maybe. It's done in Israel, you see people their carrying full automatic machine guns while at the beach or getting on a bus. It's accepted as a part of life. I understand we don't deal with the same terrorist issues like they do. But Times are ever changing.

You have valid reasons for not wanting to carry, I can accept & respect your decision because you have given it a great deal of though. You prefer to use a knife, in a certain scenario you can and may very well pull it off. But over all it's your decision to use what means you feel necessary to deal with the situation at hand. As much as I would want to carry concealed, I too am a knife lover and have trained extensively with them for many years. But in a given situation, I may resort to just using empty hand techniques, maybe a weapons disarm. A gun is not always the answer but in a mass shooting like this, armed teachers and other school employees could have lessened the damage. We all have to realize the fact that in any given situation, it just may be our time to go. We have to equal the playing field if we want to survive.

There's a picture on Facebook of a young female teacher who was killed in this incident. She purposely confronted the gunman and lied to him as to where her kids where. Telling them they were in the gym. afterward he shot and killed her. This women had the courage to confront this guy, She was close to him, had she been trained in some time of combative technique, even empty hand skills, she could have possibly stopped this. Yes she still could have been killed, but at least she would have had a FIGHTING chance. Our way of thinking about guns has failed her.The same as it would have if we sent troops into combat with the bare minimum of training and equipment.

Guns are not the only issue here. It's the whole American way of life and what it has become. The entitlement group leaches off society and drains our economy. Society has a name and bogus cure for every little ailment. People in general are getting soft, taking med's for every made up mental issue under the sun. What ever happened to grabbing yourself by the balls and driving on (excuse me ladies)? Taking responsibility for ones own actions and realizing that we are in CONTROL of our own lives, not the lives of others.

As with most of these shooting, there is that same old story of a troubled teen who has been bullied, picked on, ignored, whatever. People don't punish their kids like they used to. Now it's a time out...Bull ****! I got a boot in the ass and a "get with it". Learn or pay the price of being a dumb ass who has nothing. Now when there's a competition, everyone wins, "We're all winners", Kids don't learn the realities of life early, that one fails and get's back up and keeps going. We all can't have the same things, you get what you work for. If you slack off and trail behind, you end up with the left overs and then you get eaten by the lions. It's natures way!

 

[oldsarge]

Rev. Emily C. Heath: Dealing With Grief: Five Things NOT to Say and Five Things to Say In a Trauma Involving Children

 

[LunaticFringeInc]

Let's look back since say....Columbine.

Now let's take the method or "tool' in which the evil was done and take it out of the equation. What are we left with?

All young males aged 18-24. Most all had mental issues. How many had been on medication? How many were currently under some kind of treatment? The answers are very telling but we ignore them. Why do we ignore them?

Because the gun is the symptom of the disease. It's easier to think we could treat the symptom and it will all go away. Ever hear of the Bath School incident? The "tool" doesn't matter. What matters is getting to the root of the problem.

The young men in this country are in serious trouble. I believe years of telling people they are super-special and removing personal accountability from everyone (It's always someone or something else's fault!) leads to people who feel like victims all the time and lash out violently instead of coping with distress and working through problems.

We treat the symptoms because we don't want to admit that WE failed as a society...

You know...I think thats about the most intelligent post I have seen on this subject on several forums to date.

Lets get real and what some Dr Phil...

Guns dont kill people. People kill people! To blame all this on guns, is like blaming a spoon for making people fat. That gun didnt get itself up, take itself to this school, chamber a round on its own and fire away. It took a person to do all that. Something a vast majority of folks are missing.

Lets look at another glaring fact...shall we? Were have a over whelming number of these shootings taken place? In Gun Free Zones that were supposed to make us supposedly safer right? Did they? NO THEY DID NOT! What they did do however is give a venue to a mentally or maladjusted individual whos a coward a place to lash out long enough to wreak unimaginable tragedy before someone could respond to end it. I mean when is the last time a derranged gun man walked into the Police Station and caused an epic loss of life? (dont get me wrong here loosing one person to a violent incident is one too many) Not too many huh? You know why? There are lots of folks there with guns and they actually know how to use them! Whens the last time a derranged gun man or a armed Robber assualted a gun store? Not too many. Know why? Too many folks there have guns and know how to use them and might shoot back! Thats not the case down at the 7-11 is it?

Why is it that the odds of me being assaulted by a derranged gun man at the gun range are lower than at the mall or the movies or worse yet at school? With all of those guns there, ammunition, gun owners and lets not forget those "survivalist" that cant wait to shoot someone it should be the most dangerous place to be compared to a so called "Gun Free Zone", right? Can one anti gunner or Liberal explain that one away for me please? Im all ears!

So please tell me what additional gun laws could we pass that would prevent derranged folks from commiting violent and senseless acts against innocent people? I mean we created "Gun Free Zones" right? Hows that working out for us? We have a so called AWB for all intents and purposes in California right? Try walking the streets of LBC (Long Beach City) or Compton (Both in LA) or Logan Hights down in San Diego some night and tell me how effective thats been? Didnt we use the OJ and Nicole debacle as the final excuse to ban anyone convicted of Domestic Violence from owning or possessing a gun? Has it stopped women from being murdered by their estranged husbands or boy friends? They get restraining orders all the time and they still end up dead as well. When you go down and buy a gun, dont you fill out paper work that has questions on it like "Do you or have you suffer from a mental illness or been treated for mental illness" or something to that effect? Apparently that wasnt very effective in preventing the Movie Theater shooter from buying a gun anyways. None of the folks treating him or aware of his condition followed the proper proceedures and reported it as required neither did they. That allowed him to get past the Instant Background check too didnt it as a result. We keep passing all of these gun laws that are gonna supposedly help prevent this sort of thing and you know what, it aint made much of a difference at all. In fact it seems like we have more and more of these types of tragedies every year! Could it be that those who are derranged dont care what law you pass, they are gonna violate them anyways? I mean thats why they are criminals right...cause they break the law and they are going to break the law no matter what law you pass. Did anyone miss the fact that in the last two incidents that made sensational headlines in the news were guns that were stolen? In the case of the school children shooting do you think that trigger locks would have prevented it? I doubt it becuase the owner of the guns was shot and if the guns were locked up the shooter would have been able to access them with the owners key! I guess those calling for more gun control didnt consider that little minor detail.

I love how so many call for gun bans and magazine limits. Thats really pretty irrelevant dont you think...kinda like putting a band aid of a cut throat. I can assualt you with a a Marlin 336 lever action that holds 6 rounds of 30-30 or heck even a bolt action rifle just as easy. What does it matter if I have 1 round 6 rounds or 30 plus in weapon capacity? Your still going to be just as dead if I assault you with it! If your in a Gun Free Zone and abiding by the law and unarmed as a result what do you really think your going to be able to do to stop me that wont likely cost you your life? Having a woody for those "evil black rifles" is not going to really do much to save you if I am a darranged gunman and hell bent on killing. If fact you can go door to door and confiscate every gun in existence and you know what, I'll just use a machette, a base ball bat, a piece of pipe. Dont think I cant assault and kill you just as dead with that?

Now about those "survivalist types" out there? You know those guys who sit around all day waiting for the world to go up in smoke so they can kill someone. I guess since I own a number guns, a lot of ammunition, reload my own ammunition in many cases and have a few weeks of food stashed in the pantry in case of hard times fall into that "catagory". While I dont sit around and watch reruns of Rambo, Dirty Harry and Commando with Arnold whats his name, maybe I am wrong for taking a little responsibility for my safety and welfare if something like Hurricane Sandy or Katrina happens here. Maybe I should just be a sheep and wait for FEMA to come around and play Dr Itll B. Alright. Why spend my hard earned money on a few extra can goods and a bag of rice when I could buy something more "useful" like 22 inch spinner rims for my SUV so I can have the coolest ride in the hood or a 70 inch plasma TV so I can have a TV 2 inches bigger than my neighbors to play X-BOX 360 on. Maybe if I just go away and cease to exist all of this gun violence in the world will magically stop huh?

Bottom line is...we really cant stop senseless violence like this from happening. But what we can do is learn to deal with it better. Doing something a little more rational and organized than the touchey feeley way we deal with mental illness now would be a good start and might even go a long way. How about lets quit creating "killing zones" that allow these yahoos a place where they can do the most damage with the least amount of abatement. When they do happen, lets give those of us, who are skilled and posses good judgement a way to end it and end the carnage quickly instead of having to helplessly cower in the corner praying the police get there faster to save us. After all when seconds count the most...the police despite their best efforts, are only minutes away! How about give me the oppertunity to decide if I am going to be another victim today or if I am going to be a survivor, a survivor that kept others keep from needlessly dying that day as well. It would have only taken just one CHL holder to have ended this as quickly as it started and how many lives could that have saved the other day?

Pass all the feel good laws you want, but once a derranged gunman goes into action (or a machette weilding mad man for that matter)there are only two ways to ended it...a; they take their own life and commit suicide or b; another armed person punches their ticket. Its really that simple!

Feel free to flame away....

 

[LunaticFringeInc]

Great post Sarge, you had a quicker mouse click than I did!

 

[CozInCowtown]

Well, the fact is if a person wants to commit a murder he will find a weapon such as a gun, bow & arrow, knife, truckload of fertilizer, 3 passenger planes, a car, the list does not end.
More toothless laws are going to do nothing but restrict good peoplefrom being able to at least having the possibility to protect themselves and others.
JMO,
DC

 

[Lorax]

Well, the fact is if a person wants to commit a murder he will find a weapon such as a gun, bow & arrow, knife, truckload of fertilizer, 3 passenger planes, a car, the list does not end.
More toothless laws are going to do nothing but restrict good peoplefrom being able to at least having the possibility to protect themselves and others.
JMO,
DC

I've been explaining this great statement in another way to people who do not know about firearms other than what they have seen on TV and movies, where the gun is this scary, evil thing that spits out millions of super-lethal rounds with explosive consequences hitting and destroying everything in it's path. It's kind of ironic that the people who make the most money on this type of violence are the ones in Hollywood most outspoken on the topic of gun control. But that's a fight for another day. :tinysmile_twink_t2: It's funny that pre-1980 in shows and movies, we used to side with the good guy with the gun to make things right. Since around then, we side with the villains.

Taking my right to defend myself against crimes that could end my life or the lives of my family is like taking your car away because some drunk on the other coast far removed from you got behind the wheel and killed someone.
I shouldn't give up my 2A rights, which I've had to earn by being an upstanding citizen just like you shouldn't lose your privilege to drive a car due to the actions of many others who get behind the wheel while intoxicated every year in this country.

 

[CozInCowtown]

This is a class field trip in Isreal.
Here is the only sure-fire solution to protecting our children from psychopaths IMO.

 

[ppine]

I know this general subject hits a nerve with many people especially in lieu of the recent events. Some people seem to have missed my poiint- We need a better mental health care system and a way to track and treat people with violent tendencies. Shooters in these mass murders almost always have a history of violent behavior. As a society we have an obligation to treat these people and reduce the chances of violent behavior.

 

[Theo]

To control any violence, gun or otherwise, you have to control the people committing the violence, as ppine has said.

 

[dinosaur]

I know this general subject hits a nerve with many people especially in lieu of the recent events. Some people seem to have missed my poiint-

It may very well be that some have missed your point but probably not. Most of them are simply frustrated by the sickness of society fostered by a government that has become the problem because they are more than happy to listen to people who want to be safe and are stupid enough to believe that guns are the problem, not the mollycoddling way we now are forced to take with our children. We can no longer put a boot in their ass and we have to tell them how special they are and give them a trophy for coming in last instead of encouraging them to work harder and do better.

We keep hearing about how society has failed these poor unfortunate nut cases, but we continue to abandon the system that made this country great. We were a God fearing nation. Alexis De Toqueville said "America is great because America is good. When She ceases to be good, She will cease to be great.".

Instead we now have a welfare system that is now greater than anything since the Roman Empire and a teaching system that tells kids they can get away with anything. We have ceased to be good. These kids are given everything and are unjappy about it. They don't see any reason for their existence.

Here is a definition of the government we live under:

Ineptocracy: A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

If you give people too much, they not only don't appreciate it, they become angry.